Tuesday, September 16, 2008

Gotti Breeders... Why?

Every reputable breeder in the American Pit Bull Terrier knows what and what not to breed - and unfortunately, some asshats have selectively bred APBTS with overexaggerated traits. On the right, we have a beautiful example of an APBT stud who sticks to the old fashioned regulations - perfect body condition, nicely barreled chest, a suitably-blocky head, and beautiful muscling. I do admit, he has a tad excess cheek muscle, but other than that, he's wonderful. These are the types of APBTS we should be breeding - the ones that stick to the breed standard and don't try to glam things up. He's a beautiful stud, and he's definitely what we need to produce more of.

And then, we have the monstrosity that is the Gotti-lined APBT. These dogs are bred for size - their heads often reach measurements of over 24" around. Imagine squeezing THAT out of your vagina. The dog below looks so stiff it could barely take a shit. But hey, if it can hump, let 'im loose!

These dogs are so far from the standard it's incredible - the UKC states "The American Pit Bull Terrier must be both powerful and agile so actual weight and height are less important than the correct proportion of weight to height. Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds. Dogs over these weights are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy." Gotti-lined APBTs regularly reach weights exceeding 110. Can you imagine the BYB'ers that pop these dogs out in masses? I think the only way heads that large are going to come out is through ceasarian.

So let's see - these dogs were bred for sport. Look what Gotti breeders have done - it's almost as if they've created a new breed in their own right, but not in a good way. People are already initimidated enough by the APBT - so why do these people find it necessary to slap on spikes, leather, studs, and chains to a a breed of dog that is even moreso feared because assholes want to breed a big, mean-looking dog? At right, we have a Gotti-lined APBT - a far cry from the stud above. And look, the boy on top doesn't need any "bling" to bring attention to him; he sparkles on his own. It isn't necessary to place more hype on a breed of dog that already gets FAR more negative attention than desired. People fear the STANDARD sized APBT, so how do you think they're going to feel when you're toting around a 120+ lb APBT with a two foot around head on a ten-pound chain with a spiked leather collar? I know that sounded stereotypical, but I've seen it more often than not. I'm denoting the look, as I've met several friendly GL'ed APBTS. But why put more negative hype on the breed?

For comparison, here are a few old-fashioned breeders of APBTs:

This will be edited later. After snooping around the pages a little more, I realized that there were only a few APBTS up to standard on each site.

I will look for more reputable breeders and list them sometime today. Thanks everyone, for pointing stuff out.

I'm always up to learning new things, so if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. I still have years of studying to do, and the more I learn, the better for me in the long run.

And now, a few Gotti/Razor's Edge breeders:


Notice the difference in the Gotti/Razors Edge structure as compared to the normal APBT? Oddly enough, most APBT breeders, regardless of whether or not they are reputable, have some pretty lame pages. I think I'd be more pulled in if your page didn't have lame music and glitter and sparkles and whatnot. My brain just can't take it all in at once. But, IMO, I'd go for the dogs that aren't massively mutated through inbreeding/linebreeding and aren't bedecked in spikes and harnesses (unless they're for pulling, of course!).

And you just know with heads that large and bodies that stocky, breathing is going to be a problem. Why not try to breed out health problems rather than try to make some business opportunity out of poorly bred dogs?

I'm a fan of all dogs, regardless of other people's views on them. I believe strong, consistent training is the key to any happy, manageable, healthy dog, and the difference starts with the owner. I'm not writing this post as a bash on the APBT, but I am saying that the breeding of Gotti/Razor's Edge-lined APBTs has pulled the breed down a few notches. The OLD APBT needs to make a comeback and quick - the dogs of tomorrow will no longer be the dogs of today.

Happy Tuesday, everyone!


Sarah said...

Interesting new blog! And kudos for choosing something more unexpected than the usual suspects in bad breed design (English Bulldog, etc.) One suggestion for future topics re: fugly breeders - the #1 problem with all the 'bully' breeds is dog aggression, and I don't see anyone breeding away from it. I'd love to see a post on the people who routinely use dog fighting language to praise their lines.

LegendsLiveOn said...

I think I'll tackle that issue Thursday - tomorrow I'm posting on Lethal Whites and the continued breeding of Aussies with this gene, and Friday I think I'm going to do an expository on "rare white" Dobermans.

mommyof3 said...

Hey, good topic. I like the spinoff of Fuglyhorseoftheday, and being the dog lover that I am, and how much I HATE BYBers, I think this blog will be great!!! I do look forward to hearing about the lethal white topic, one of my biggest pet peeves is when breeders use the terms rare or unique to sell pups that carry this gene. I see it all the time, I work at a vet and see people bring in their white Dobies, Boxers,etc.. and rave about how rare they are. Yah, their rare because no one is SUPPOSEd to breed them!!! Anyways, way off todays topic. I agree that the Gotti lines are hideous. And don't know why true Pit lovers would want to make the breed LOOK more scary. Cause even if your Pit is the sweetest dog on the planet, if that huge monster came running towards me, even with tail wagging, I'd probably crap my pants!

LegendsLiveOn said...

LOL, I know. Someone posted on FHOTD the other day looking for a dogblog, and I decided to make one. "Rare colours" and "Teacups/Minis" are my biggest pet peeve. Anyways, stay tuned, more good stuff to come. :)

mommyof3 said...

Wow, just saw your profile, you're a Senior?? I'm very impressed, you're very knowledgable about this subject. Ok, I'm sure you won't run out of topics for a long time, but you have to do one on Designer Breeds too, that one just pisses me off. People that pay hundreds and thousands for a mutt that they can get at the pound. And don't get me wrong, I love mutts!! I have one!! But to pay that much money, just shows how stupid the people are. A friend of mine paid $400 for a Chi/Pom mix, all because she saw the mom and wanted one "just like her". So she told the lady that when she had her pups, she wanted one. I explained to her (multiple times) that the pups won't look like the mom, since the mom is a Chi/Pom mix, and the dad is a Pom. They're mutts, they could come out looking like anything!! But no, she ended up buying the one that looked closest to the mom, now she's complaining because she's getting too big (she's 3 friggin pounds!) and her hair it all long and straggly. Well, what the frick do you think? It's a MUTT!!! I love the dog, but think it's outrageous that she paid money for her. And of course she calls it a Pomchi, cause it sounds so cool, and people think she's so cute, so they say well where can I get one of those??? I tell them at the pound. I refuse to use the designer breed names, think they're just a stupid way to make stupid people pay alot of money for a mixed breed dog.

Ok, taking a deep breath, all done!! Better go get my kids at school!!!!

Larthan said...

In response here to Sarah, there is no dog-aggressive gene. People train that into dogs, or simply do not train aggression out of dogs. And it's not a problem with only bully breeds. I've seen my fair share of vicious labrador retrievers and poodles and I have the scars to prove it. Chihuahuas and smaller dogs are more aggressive than the larger ones, so why don't we focus on them, too? Because it's 'cute' when they attack us?

In response to legendsliveon - Great post. And just to note, there is not a 'lethal white' gene, there's a string of genes that causes this problem, so perhaps focus on careful breeding so as not to put that string together?

And I'm just waiting for the one on the dobies. Z factored dobies have such hard times because of their condition, and I feel that they shouldn't be bred into this world, poor dears.

Such horrible things people do to these beautiful creatures.

LegendsLiveOn said...
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LegendsLiveOn said...

Thank you everyone, yes, I'm a senior and surprisingly enough, I attend a continuation school... but that just goes to show you, I'm you're typical lazy teenager. I've always been a GATE kid and all of that jazz, but then the middle school drama got to me and since 6th grade I've just felt better voicing my opinion than writing it or figuring it in numbers. :)

Larthan D. (from FP I'm assuming. I'm a looong time FP'er [4288 my original account; Legends] who's taken a break from there, though I'm kind of sad to see my lines go because they're high and rare.), I wasn't aware that it was a strain, but thought it was a combination of the two same genes (like breeding an H/H horse to an H/H horse), you'd create a lethal white? And I sympathize for white Dobies too; I've always loved the breed. I think we need to find the breeders and give them a spay visit along with my newly invented Neutical Stealth Program (NSP for short), and prevent more breedings of them. Perhaps we can practice on the humans too with some Rufies...? Lol :]

But yeah, I've been absorbing pretty much everything I can about dogs for the past 10 years, so I've gotten pretty good.


Will definitely do designer breeds. I need to get a digital camera - there is a pet store near my school with puppies with what looks like demodex, and they have no water and are thin. I found dead/hurt mice and hamsters in their cages, and there were tons of Designer Breeds there. Even the nicer petstores I go to (even though I discourage buying petstore dogs my family has bought 2) have a "cockapoo" for a grand - I could pick a spaniel and a poodle up somewhere cheap, breed them, and sell them for a grand, who knew?

People drive me crazy.

LegendsLiveOn said...

Though I do admit, when the mood strikes me, I like to write. But that's usually not in school. *shh*

mommyof3 said...

OK, I'm clueless, what is FP?

LegendsLiveOn said...

FP is Furry-Paws.com. It's kind of like HorseLand, only we deal with breeding dogs and creating virtual kennels. Our exception is that we aren't assholes there. :)

jordie0587 said...

I don't want to seem snotty, but the first dog you pictured is still NOT of standard.

That dog has a horrible head.

If you'd like to learn more about the breed standard, this is a WONDERFUL website about APBTs.


LegendsLiveOn said...

Jordie1 -

The first stud is of standard. The UKC calls for a head "of medium length, with a broad, flat skull, and a wide, deep muzzle", which you can see on this dog. On the other hand, you've got the Gotti APBT with an overly massive head.

"SKULL - The skull is large, flat or slightly rounded, deep, and broad between the ears. Viewed from the top, the skull tapers just slightly toward the stop. There is a deep median furrow that diminishes in depth from the stop to the occiput."

"MUZZLE - The muzzle is broad and deep with a very slight taper from the stop to the nose, and a slight falling away under the eyes. The length of muzzle is shorter than the length of skull, with a ratio of approximately 2:3. The topline of the muzzle is straight. The lower jaw is well developed, wide and deep. Lips are clean and tight."

This dog is very up to par on standards, he's just a bit of a bulkier boy.

mommyof3 said...

Ok, I checked out one of the links, for Boss Up Kennels. Umm, are those supposed to be breed standard? Cause they have multiple dogs that are monstrosities! The one called Escalade is enormous, and nowhere near breed standard! And what's with their pics of the dogs breeding? That's just weird! One of their females, a blue and white cropped girl named Iron Maiden, looks like she's on steroids, it's really disgusting. And they even call their male Hammerhead a "freak". And their stud fees are $4500 and $8000??? WTF??? I'm just curious as to why you thought this breeder was good?

Haven't checked out the other links yet.

mommyof3 said...

Ok sorry, now I'm just being a PIA, but the second link you posted, for Guardian Angel Pits, I have a couple questions. They look like they have 2 different breeds. There are two females that look like the normal pit, then the blue male and blue female look like monsters. Also noticed that they show pics of the females at 16 months old with uncropped ears, then at 22 months old has cropped ears. Why would they wait until the dog is 1 1/2 to crop the ears? Seems really weird to me. I work at a vet where they do ear crops, and we don't crop past 12 weeks. Makes you wonder if they do them themselves? Ok, I'm going to bed now. Night..

Colleensinn said...
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Sarah said...

"People train that into dogs, or simply do not train aggression out of dogs."

Aggression is not trained or abused into a dog. Why have people bothered with selectively breeding a particular type of dog for dog-fighting instead of just picking up strays from the pound. Why aren't they pitting Danes against each other? Danes are pretty impressive; you'd think they'd make a much better spectacle.

"Chihuahuas and smaller dogs are more aggressive than the larger ones, so why don't we focus on them, too?

Maybe because they don't maul and kill many people. Oh, they might get an infant on a bad day, but in general, when you google "Chihuahua" you won't turn up several different mauling stories on any given day.

Emily said...

Ok, so of the three links you put up under the breeders that follow standards, I found only one that seemed like they fit:

The last one. If the standard is for a 30-50lbs female and 35-60lbs male, then the first two don't follow that standard at all. They both have pits over and around 100lbs on their pages - which would fit your descrip of the gotti/razor's edge breeders, not those that follow standards.

Anyway - still good reading and I would like to read more!

Regarding the "training" and "agression" comments ... I'm not getting into it :)

I am one of the dog trainers in my local rescue that takes the "agressive" ones, works them through their issues, and gets them ready for adoption to families.

I have quite a strong opinion about training and have learned that discussing it in such ways (like comments on blogs) only leads to confusion and frustration. :)

Crunchberry's mom said...

oooh man this is a pet peeve of mine... people sometimes say my Vinnie looks 'anorexic'. umm .no. he is an example of the BREED STANDARD, not a mutant.

This breed combines strength and athleticism with grace and agility and should never appear bulky or muscle-bound or fine-boned and rangy.

mommyof3 said...

You know, it's funny, working at a very large vet clinic, we have about 30 DVMs on staff, and typically see anywhere from 200-400 patients a day, I have only had to deal with maybe a handful of aggressive Pit Bulls in the 3 years that I've worked there. There are far more aggressive Cocker Spaniels, Jack Russells, Chow's, Shar Pei's, Dalmations, etc... Most of the nasty dogs are the little ones, the one's whose owners let them get away with it because they're so small, I guess they figure they can't do much damage, which is BS. So they get to be really nasty. We do get other bully breeds that are bad, alot of American Bulldogs and English Bulldogs, but for the most part, the Pit Bulls are typically very easy going dogs, at least the ones we get.

This is kind of off topic, but just have to get it off my chest. Yesterday this lady comes in with a litter of 7 American Bulldog pups, about 10 weeks old. Totally BYB. She was telling me how she has both the mom and dad, but how the mom was just not a good example of the breed, how she had never bonded to anyone in the family, they'd had her since she was a pup, and she wasn't protective enough, and they were going to get rid of her because she still acted like a puppy and never settled down. OK, this was the second litter this lady pumped out of this poor dog, why the hell would you breed a dog TWICE if she's not a perfect example of what the breed should be? I so wanted to go off on her, but it's not my place to do so, at work. Then she tells me how she hasn't even started advertising yet, they were 10 weeks old! She just couldn't bring herself to think about finding them homes yet, cause she was so attached to them. OK, ummm, this isn't your first litter lady. So what are you gonna do, wait until they're all 6 months old, eating you out of house and home, then decide you can't afford to feed 7 halfgrown pups, and their parents, and dump them off at the pound or beg someone to come and take them. Obviously it is easier to find them homes as cute little 2 month old pups then waiting until they're big and gangly. Sometimes I really just want to scream. I'm glad I have this blog to vent on, I think most people think I'm weird for being so passionate about spaying/neutering and irresponsble breeding. But that' the problem, most people don't think it's a big deal, and thus the problem we have with overpopulation.

Colleensinn said...
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Colleensinn said...

Yea mommyof3, completely agree with you!

Sarah said...

Colleensinn - I've heard every argument and I'm really familiar with them all because I used to use them all the time too. I used to wuuuuuv pit bulls. They were soooooo unfairly treated by a biased media sexing up news stories about kids who probably teased them. It was all about the owners, blame the deed not the breed. Yeah. But the problem is, I've never met an owner who wasn't an asshole. And if you're rollerblading with your pit bull, you fit the bill. 99% of the time, 99% of pit bulls won't bother a flea. That 1% of the time? You're going to be on your ass with your rollerblades in the air and whatever your dog went after is going to be maimed or dead. Almost every dog reacts to something, whether that stimulus is general (other dogs) or specific (that ugly other dog across the street who's making faces at me). When that happens with a pit bull, they have the strength and agility to make very successful attempts to reach the object of their dislike, and to kill it. They are not a breed to rollerblade with, to let offleash, etc. But every single person I've ever met with a pit bull treats it like it's a beagle.

Oh, two other things -
1) 'gameness' is a pointless and ugly trait, one that can only be proven by putting two dogs of equal size and ability in a pit to kill each other. And there is nothing brave about it; given a choice, most aggressive dogs of any breed will attack a dog who irritates them, not one who is their physical equal. They're not stags, they're hyenas.

2) That temperament test not only made allowances for breed type - aka, a GSD can be more territorial than a Bearded Collie - but was openly biased toward breeds with low reactivity, aka, the bulldogs, mastiffs, retrievers, etc. It was essentially designed to produce a high score for 'fighting' breeds.

Houyhnhnm said...

Colleen, thanks for your well educated responses... =)

My stepfather showed and bred champion Great Danes in the 60s when THEY were the feared dog-Sarah did you know that they were almost banned from the AKC because they were considered aggressive and dangerous?

Each decade gets it's own "evil dog" we're just living in the pitbull decade right now. Before it was Dobie's. Before that Rotties, and before that Shepards. Where are Shepards now? Defending and working with the police.

Training, breeding, trends and media are all part of what can save or damn a breed.

Houyhnhnm said...

Also, Sarah, here is a community of non-asshole pibble owners:


There are lots of positive discussions and wonderful caring owners who are working hard to turn this breed's image around. If you're curious take a look through, but they tend to approach with the FHOTD tenacity when the subject of breeding pups is brought up. (which is awesome)

Hope that's helpful

Colleensinn said...

I like the way you keep it positive while getting your point across! I will try to practice that more in the future, instead of getting all ranty:)

Thanks! Colleen

LegendsLiveOn said...

Mommyof3 -

While cropping is usually done early, if a breeder evaluates a dog that wasn't fit to compete before / is a new addition at a later date for competition, the ears are usually cropped, regardless of age. They're seen as a nuisance in certain fields of work due to the high risk of ears being caught and torn.

bubbasmom said...

I disagree with your choice on the first dog. He doesn't look correct at all to me. He's way too heavy in the forehand for his rear, for one thing, and his head is too wide compared to muzzle length.

HOWever, he IS much better than the Gotti example you showed!

I'm not in this breed any more (too many liability issues, too many asshats to deal with), but if I could, I would have one again. They totally fill my eye:^)

shirley said...

not that i endorse her kennel, methods or all the conclusions she comes to, but i think a lot of this woman's working dogs have pretty damn good conformation:


personally i love the olde style lookin' american staffordshires, like this little guy:


jordie0587 said...

Again, I have to disagree. He has a short muzzle, no underjaw, lose flews, a domed skull, and muzzle and skull are not parallel. Seriously, check out the website that explains the standard and you will see what I'm talking about.

Mavros said...

Sarah, you're a dick! Everybody knows it's how the owners bring up the dog that causes the dog to be aggressive or not.
These dogs are monstrosities, like a Frankenstein dog, but then a dogs are interbred to get the desired pooch. Dogs can never be pedigree as the only canine pedigree is wolf.

casey killough said...

I agree. To be honest, I don't believe that 90% of these dogs are even full blooded pitbull terriers. There are so many people crossing them with Boston terriers (for height/shorter snout), bull mastiffs for sheer size and English bulldogs for the "bully" look. They even breed them with rottweillers for the "tri" color that they come out with. Pitbulls just aren't plain old pitbulls anymore. Society has changed them along with the picture they have painted of this intelligent, loyal, resilient, forgiving, athletic breed of dog. They truly are what you make them. If people keep doing what they continue to do today, the "true" pitbull breed itself will no longer exist. All we will have is this "mixed" breed generation that they experiment with now & for the generation of dogs to come......

Valentin Diaz said...

Good point. every body likes big and muscular pittbull looking dogs. those bloodlines cant be used for fighting, they cant fight at all, even a german shepherd will probably kill an American bully. American Bully's are only for show.